Take off the Mask with CasieCasem

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Welcome back to take off the mask. I'm your host, Casie Casem. And today's episode is deeply personal

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: both to me and to the conversation we're about to have.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Grief is something most of us will face.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: yet few of us are taught how to live with it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: especially when it's not only profound but violent.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: My guest today understands that kind of grief intimately, not because she studied it, but because she's lived it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Dr. Katie Wiggins. She is a licensed Mental health counselor. She's the founder of Uprooted Where Healing is Planted. Llc.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: She's a trauma-informed private practice that helps people move through grief with compassion and clarity.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: She's a licensed mental health counselor, a grief educator, and an advocate.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: But to me Katie is also something more.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: She was the 1st grief counselor I ever sat across from

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: at a time when I didn't have a language for what I was feeling.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Katie met me in that raw space and helped me begin to name it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Her father was murdered, my mother was murdered.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: We met through project cold case.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: bounded by unimaginable loss, but also by a quiet commitment to healing, even when justice never came.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Today we're sitting down, not as counselor and client, but as 2 survivors, 2 humans

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: who know what it means when grief doesn't knock, it crashes in

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: before we begin. I invite anyone listening to take a deep breath.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: If you're carrying something heavy today.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: you don't have to sit it down. Just know you don't have to carry it alone.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Hi, Katie, thanks so much for joining us today. I am so excited to have you.

Katie: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Oh, my goodness! We have had some incredible learning experiences together. I absolutely applaud you for taking everything that you've gone through and turning it into something, for everyone else.

Katie: Yeah, thank, you, yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I understand how

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: little there are when it comes to grief counselors who understand exactly what that grief process looks like. There's a lot of people that can go through the education, but it's the living experience of it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: What does it mean to you when we say grief finds you.

Katie: Well, I, the 1st initial thought that comes to me is that a lot of people tend to run from pain

Katie: and grief is a very painful process, and so, if we are running from it, it ends up, coming out in different ways. So it finds us in its own way. So, therefore we really have to learn how to befriend it, because it'll happen. We experience grief throughout our entire life doesn't have to be murder loss. And so, no matter where you're at in life, what you've been through

Katie: it, it will find you. It happens. Grief is a part of life.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Hmm!

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: How do we begin to recognize grief when it doesn't show up in tears? But in silence, exhaustion, even rage.

Katie: Hmm!

Katie: The emotions that you just stated. You know, the the experience that I've had personally, but also clinically.

Katie: when when we are not

Katie: processing what is happening on the inside, on the outside it is being projected, and so that is anger, irritability, anxiety in our stomachs, anxiety in our lives worry, a sense of control that we have to have, which is an illusion. You know, we can't keep relationships healthy. It comes out in all kinds of ways.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Going to ask you a very complex question.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: what is grief in your educated experience? Knowledge, all of the things.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: What is grief? How would you define that.

Katie: The short, educated answer is, grief is a loss. So it is the experience of losing something that meant something to us. Right?

Katie: I mean, there's differences between grief and mourning, and like mourning is the process of grief, and grief is the actual event. You know that we can say, oh, this is grief! I named this grief. I lost my dad. That is grief. I feel grief, but the experience of grief is the mourning process, and so grief in simplistic terms is a loss of something important.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: we have 2 different losses, and we have one shared pain between the 2 of us, which is something. It's absolutely a precious.

Katie: Precious thing to have between the 2 of us, because you understand exactly how I'm feeling, and you've really held my hand and helped me walk through it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: You lost your father, and I lost my mother when I was only one year old. We both lost parents to homicide.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: and yet our grief took different shapes.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: How has that shaped not only how you grieve, but how you guide others through it?

Katie: Well, losing my dad. I was, you know, 23 in my bachelor's

Katie: program and just working, going to school, a normal young adult

Katie: And so when I lost him, I didn't quite grasp the depth of what had happened until very later. Like

Katie: probably my thirties.

Katie: I knew that I experienced a sting of pain that was different. But I don't think that I ever acknowledged that it existed, and partially, that's because of the unsolved piece where everyone just moves forward.

Katie: No one talked about it anymore. And so I wasn't aware

Katie: that I just didn't know how important it was. How was, how was it supposed to stay important to me? How did I express it? I didn't understand it, and so I took that experience of being unheard, unseen, misunderstood, and I turned it into making meaning, and that was the only thing I knew to do.

Katie: And then that's when I began to realize I had never fully, actually grieved, and to grieve a loved one like we have lost. We have to also grieve who they were, who they should have been

Katie: in the future, but also their past. You know, my dad was a complex person, and so I realized I was

Katie: grieving someone that I didn't always know fully, because there were so many things I didn't know about him until after his death, and so it was very complex loss for me,

Katie: And I. So I took that experience as well, and I can. I can sit across from somebody who's experienced the same thing

Katie: from a different parent. A different loved one could be a child, whatever it is, and we can talk about the honesty of who the person was

Katie: who they should have been and who they could be, and I think that is grasping the entirety of the grief process instead of just a death we have to really express

Katie: about their life. We have to. We have to understand their life too. And so for me that that was making meaning of figuring out how to honor him and his life.

Katie: through helping others and helping heals. And that's really once I figured out helping was helping me.

Katie: I kept it going.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Dude that is so real. It's like it. I've I've found that a lot, too, with the tools and the resources that I'm also trying to create is that there's

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: such a there's not, there's not any. There's such a void. And so that is a niche that

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: we, I think, having a lived experience, are able

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: to work on and be able to kind of help that there.

Katie: There's.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: There's

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: like no grief counselors out there. It's a very complex thing to be able to deal with grief because it lasts for

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: ever.

Katie: Yeah, a lot of people don't and I don't want to say I mean, there's tons of grief counselors

Katie: great, not so great. I don't know, but you know I have friends who are in the field, and they will come to me for grief advice, obviously, because that's my thing. And so I'm a hundred percent comfortable with death. I enjoy speaking about it. I enjoy talking about it. I enjoy learning about it. A lot of people can't sit in that space because we are, as a society, are designed to fix.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I mean.

Katie: And like make make us. You know, we're attached to outcomes. We're attached to solutions, and this is this is one we can't solve, and I love it. That's why I love it. And so the clinician friends I have are like, Hey, what do I do with this?

Katie: And I'm like you literally just sit in that space with them, maybe ask about their loved one. You know. What was their name? What did they like? What did what some memories. It doesn't always have to be fixated on the event that occurred. And so but yeah, there's a lot of discomfort around grief.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah. What? Well, now that you've brought up death and your comfortability on talking about it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: could you enlighten us a little bit on on what that means. Maybe expand on what you, as a grief counselor, have the piece on death about.

Katie: Yeah, I think it's more or less as a person before a counselor.

Katie: You know I grew up.

Katie: I grew up pretty rough, I would say,

Katie: violent different things that shouldn't have happened, you know. And so we have. I have those memories. I have those those

Katie: experiences. So I knew grief, but I never knew what grief was. I knew grief, but I didn't know how to name it. And so once I went into grad school

Katie: and

Katie: actually, I'm going to back up. There's a there's a story I don't tell very often when I was a kid I don't know how old I was whenever Titanic came out. I don't know how old I was when it came out, but I was fascinated with that movie, and I still am I? Listen to the soundtrack to go to sleep, to be honest. But so my grandpa took me to the movies to see Titanic, and the that night when I went home to go. You know you've seen Titanic. I would imagine.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Oh, yeah.

Katie: End when they're all floating in the water dead, and no one can find a live person, and she blows the whistle.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Oh!

Katie: I remember being at home, and I mean I had to be. It was 92, 94, I think 94, and I don't even know when that was. But either way

Katie: I was a kid, and I just laid there, and I could not stop thinking about the people

Katie: that no one came for them, and that they died, and they they weren't able to survive because no one saved them. And I had such a deep compassion, and I remember that feeling so moving forward, there was always just this

Katie: innate understanding and compassion that I had for death, that it should be respected. It should be honored, it should be embraced, and it should be talked about because it's it is a part of life we all are die. Are we all gonna get murdered. I hope not. But we all are going to die, you know. So there's something to be respected about it. And so I knew that. And then when I went to grad school.

Katie: there's hardly any classes on grief, and you know I studied attachment after grad school, and so I became fascinated with that, but even into attachment wounds. Grief is such a big deal, and so we had. That's 1 grief class, one book, and we I read it, and it was there that I learned that I had grieved so much in my life that I didn't even realize it. And

Katie: so that combined, there's no like easy answer to your question other than that, combined with this respect, that we owe death. An honest conversation about death needs to happen with people. Those 2 things combined make me

Katie: fascinated by it, because it's just the one thing we cannot solve, and it doesn't have to be figured out. We just have to accept it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Oh, yeah, that's incredible. I absolutely resonate with.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: There's not a whole lot of information out there on

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: death and grief. Yeah, and especially grieving.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: grieving somebody that's very like intimately involved in your family, like a parent or a child.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: and holding that space just going back earlier to the conversation that we had about how you're grieving the person on who they were who they could have, and then should have been.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: We're also grieving that void of

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: us, not having those versions of them. So it's like grieving. It's sad that they don't get to experience that part of life.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: but it's also sad that we don't get to experience that life with them.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And that's something I haven't been able to name from my own self. I completely resonate with that on the attachment styles with grief. Can you touch on how the like? What can you expand on that as far as the attachment styles, and how they are affected by grief.

Katie: Yeah, I won't go into every style

Katie: I can give an example of, you know. For instance, you losing a mom moms are so I mean you grow the baby, you know, most likely, unless you've adopted. But you grow this child, and there's a bond that we don't have with a father. And so, when there is a an abandonment of some sort, whether it's death or physical, just in general, of neglect, you know

Katie: it does something to us that is inexplainable. And so the research that I've found and the research I actually just finished for my doctorate, it shows, like the higher the anxiety which would be anxious attachment, the lower, the resilience that includes attachment to God, attachment to any type of caretaker figure.

Katie: My, my research was solely attachment to God scale. But research shows that the the higher the the more anxious attachment, the lower the resiliency, the lower the

Katie: capability of moving forward sometimes and so. And then, if you have, you know, avoidant, you're, it's the same concept. You're going to avoid

Katie: certain levels of healing, because it's it's too close to home. It really hurts, you know.

Katie: so yeah, it's there's definitely a lot of research on it. It's just

Katie: it's not something you can explain in one sentence. So it takes time, you know, when these people come into the office it takes time to unravel that kind of stuff, and so that might be why, you can't name exactly what you've experienced, because there was such a deep abandonment when your mom was killed, and you were so young, and

Katie: might be just like an open wound, you know.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Oh, yeah, for sure. Oh, I had to do. Oh, it's awful! You know. I've had incredible relationships with just

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: relationships.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And I did do the attachment styles

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: test to see what I was, and I do have

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: the anxious avoidant. It's incredible, because I've I've now I understand now I am unpacking that I have both.

Katie: Of the back and forth feelings of, you know.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: F. You don't leave me, you know, both of them, and so it's absolutely deep rooted from

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: my fear of abandonment.

Katie: Yeah, yeah.

Katie: it's very common fear. It's all fear based. Codependency comes from that as well. It's all fear based. And so fear based comes from grief, you know. We don't want to experience that kind of loss again.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: We know what it feels like to to lose deeply, and so we either cling on and control and manipulate and make sure that we don't lose. We just kind of push in our own way to experience the loss that we know is inevitable.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Oh, man, what would you say to someone like me grieving the absence of a parent? They never really got to know.

Katie: Hmm.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: First, st it's

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: okay. That was the biggest thing that you told the the first.st I know. The 1st thing I needed to hear was, it's okay.

Katie: My.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Feelings are valid, even if it was like, we're going on

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: 37 years, 38. This is 30.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I'm about to be 39.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: We're about to be 38 years, 38 years. So my whole life I've just like not known her, but I've had that void

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: of her absence. And so I remember the 1st

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: thing that I needed that you gave me was permission to be in my feelings about it, like permission to grieve her.

Katie: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I would say that is, you have to allow it and give yourself permission to

Katie: acknowledge that it's not fair.

Katie: But this shouldn't have happened, not in the way that happened for you. So, recognizing the injustice, the unfairness

Katie: not wearing it, just acknowledge it. And so it's 1 thing to notice. It's another thing to dwell. And so it's just noticing, like, I shouldn't feel this way. It's unfair. And it's okay that it's unfair. And it's okay that I feel angry. It's okay that I feel a deep absence. You know, you're mourning a world that

Katie: would only make sense with a mom in it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Hmm.

Katie: She's not, you know. And even though you didn't know that, I think because of attachment and the way that we were created, we know.

Katie: That's that's why attachment is a theory in general, because we know that there's a caretaker. We know that there was somebody who brought us into this world.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, something's missing, like, even if nobody acknowledges that something's missing, you feel that something is missing.

Katie: Yeah.

Katie: Yeah. Cause you think you know, I've worked with foster care children stuff like that. And they're all

Katie: they're all.

Katie: Most of them come from trauma, I can't say all but a majority of them have some trauma, and within that trauma, even within my own family, kids have been taken from their moms and put in another home.

Katie: They still desire that parent, even though that Mom was not the best mom, not the best caretaker, not healthy for them. They still have that innate desire to be near them and like fix that relationship. And so it would be no different to me. I don't know how it could be with your mom dying, and you being a child, and I mean not even a child a baby. You know the grief is so layered for you.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Hmm.

Katie: And attachment. Theory shows that even before we have words our bodies know loss.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: Because you never got to know her.

Katie: It's you know, your your meaning meaning making is about memories. How do you make meaning without memories?

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: That's that's the unique challenge that I've seen you carry.

Katie: So you've created a story. You've created connection. You've created something from that absence in a beautiful.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Thank you. Katie.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I want to touch on

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: and I'm not sure if one and one makes 2. So I'm very interested in your thoughts on what I'm about to say.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: But how you said I was, you know, and this is for me. But I'm hoping that this will open up some understanding for anybody who's listening on the age that you experience grief.

Katie: So.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: The age that so I'm I'm still learning. This is why we have all these conversations. This is why, you know, is to be able to open a platform and have these types of conversations so that we can learn more right? So the age of grief when the big thing happened for you now a whole lot of stuff has happened over my life that have, you know, incorporated into different griefs. But that was my 1st one, and that was the one that has impacted my life, the most being one.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I acted as a 1 year old where it's like

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: crying and like feeling like, you know

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I'm gonna say, I was in a crib.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: screaming, begging for somebody to come. Pick me up, you know. That's the feeling that I carry with me

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: all the time like I feel that

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: often like when I am. You know, it's a random Tuesday, and the moon is just slightly tilted, and my day is off. I

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: feel like

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I am a child in a crib, begging for somebody to come, pick her up and like nobody ever comes. And so that's something that I have to.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Sit with myself for a little bit and and have to tell myself like, this is okay.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: You know this. This is just a feeling. This is like everything's fine, everything's fine. But that feeling will just come out of nowhere. Sometimes.

Katie: Yeah.

Katie: so age it, you know, grief is different at every age we experience. It looks different at every age. A baby, young child. You don't have words for the loss.

Katie: but your body would feel the absence.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: You were used to your mom holding you or rocking you, or even if she didn't do any of that, which I'm sure she did. But if you know, if she didn't, you you still experienced having a mother whether you knew that or not, you know.

Katie: Oh.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Do you think so? Do you think that correlates that feeling that I have is me going back to the age of the grief.

Katie: Could be. There's no way for me to exactly know that. But

Katie: I mean, I think research would indicate that that's a possibility, because as we grow up

Katie: we re-grieve another way, right? So we we grieve in new ways. You when you turned so you were one. Then you turned 5, and you were more cognizant that you don't have a mom.

Katie: You turn 10. There's another, you know. I'm just going up 5 years, but there's.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: Experienced whereas mine were more accolades. Not necessarily like big events. You you did you? Your milestones are more age related.

Katie: So each developmental stage brought new questions, new emotions.

Katie: New grief. So it's not a 1 time event. We know that. So that you know, as far as that goes.

Katie: Yeah, I think your brain goes back to that. Your body goes back to that memory.

Katie: you know, when you describe that I think of like a little child locked in a basement, just waiting for someone to rescue them. You know.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, that's how it feels. But I don't know if that's like, if that's a grief.

Katie: Or if that's.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Me.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I don't know. I do. I believe that's my grief. I believe that's how my grief shows up.

Katie: Could be could be attachment related as well, you know.

Katie: potential inconsistencies and neglects in your life outside of Mom dying so

Katie: the way that you developed in general, what's is gonna play a part? It's not just her murder, her murder with you as one.

Katie: And there does not.

Katie: Is not the root cause of every single thing.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, yeah, so it's probably a mixture of both.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Let's move on to your grief counselor's grief.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: So how does your own story impact the way you show up for your clients.

Katie: Hmm.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Well, so in grad school they would teach us.

Katie: You know, one of one of the most important skills that we're to have

Katie: is like, we have an ethical code. But one of the main things is autonomy, so, letting the person be who they are, myself included.

Katie: For me, there's an authenticity with this job, and so I've always been.

Katie: I don't like bragging or boasting about stuff like this with myself, but I've always been this relatable person, so this person that can. I can pretty much climb into a hole with whoever they are, and just sit there. It doesn't. I've just always been that kind of person.

Katie: So taking that and then going into the counseling grad program. It was

Katie: different. Because then we were being taught skills and all. Obviously, textbook knowledge and stuff like that. And I was starting from scratch. Everyone else had an undergrad in psych or something, and I had never studied it in my life. I had no idea what I was getting into, and so

Katie: what I did learn the most was connection and and authenticity and transparency, and so transparency solely for it to benefit the person across from me. And so

Katie: when I put those together and I started counseling when I 1st started counseling it was children. It was very so. Children taught me so much about myself, you know. 1st of all, they're honest. They're funny.

Katie: They're not. They don't really Bs in sessions, you know. We just had some good times and but I had really sad times, and I just so from that, I just know connection is really what sold. And so as a

Katie: a survivor of homicide, going into counseling of all kinds of issues, not just murder loss.

Katie: I just connection was key

Katie: and my lived experiences, not just murder, loss. All of my lived experiences I could feel

Katie: played a part in most of the clients lives that I've been with, and I've been with a lot of clients at this point. And so

Katie: it's so. It's those key things, authenticity, connection, relatability.

Katie: compassion, you know. And then remembering. It's not about me

Katie: that's that's my key. It's not about me or my story, but what I can do is take my lived experiences and my story.

Katie: and I can relate to them. So if if you've never met me, and you don't know anything about my past with my dad dying, or whatever, and you share, I could say feels like no one's listening. And you would say, Yes, that's what that feels like.

Katie: I would say, Yeah, and but you don't know why I know that you know what I'm saying. Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Just.

Katie: There's a way to be with them without sharing

Katie: my story, and that's what I love the most, because it's still a very honest space.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: That's incredible, I love that. I.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I love that because it it doesn't take away from them.

Katie: Correct.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: It just allows that full space for them to understand that you're you're understanding what they're feeling. And then you're able to help put words to.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: The emotion.

Katie: Yeah, there's a skill in grad school called reflecting Feelings, and I mean we all do it. We just don't know there's a name for it. And so

Katie: That's what I lean on. A majority of the time is just reflecting the feelings, especially if it's a similar experience to me.

Katie: And then that just builds the trust, the rapport, but also the insight and the person and their their internal stuff coming forward. Once we feel heard, I mean, there's no really going back, and that's what they're.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: This is gonna

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: maybe repeat a little bit of what we just talked about. But I'm gonna invite you to go into it a little bit more with this question, so is it difficult to hold space for others when their stories echo your own.

Katie: No, no,

Katie: I have professors who probably would differ in a disagree.

Katie: I remember, I remember, when I got accepted to grad school I had been part of some. I was with some friends, and they had addiction background, like they were addicts at some point, and so I remember them, saying, You can't help somebody when you've never experienced it. And I was like

Katie: really bothered by that. And then I realized that some of that's true.

Katie: Some of it's not

Katie: so. I can go to school. I can learn about addiction. I can. Yeah, never been an addict. But my lived experience was that my dad was, and so

Katie: I could.

Katie: I could pay that forward somehow. And so

Katie: I learned early on how to compartmentalize different things, not avoid.

Katie: but put things in boxes when I'm with somebody in the room, and they're talking about something. There's a term called counter transference. And it does happen where you're you're feeling what they feel.

Katie: And in short, it it's becoming

Katie: too much for you, because it's it's impacting you somehow.

Katie: so does that happen? Sure. But there's you have. You learn the skill on how to manage that tension.

Katie: And so for me, I learned early on how to compartmentalize

Katie: lived experience from their lived experience and

Katie: and just being in the present moment with them.

Katie: so it doesn't impact me. But there are times. And there have been times where I've gotten out of a session and just needed to pause for myself. Yeah, for sure. And that just depends on the case that I'm hearing the

Katie: you know, when I counseled children, that was

Katie: that was more impactful than not. Yeah. But yeah.

Katie: but doesn't impact my skill and ability to help.

Katie: It just touches me in a way that I wasn't expecting that you don't. You just don't prepare for it, but that's you know humanity.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: is there something that stands out to you without giving you know, any vulnerable information away? But was there something like a story that impacted you in a way that you know how we would tell our stories. And it's going to impact people that haven't had this experience, but something that maybe stuck with you and maybe

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: taught you something that you didn't know or just gave you a real impact.

Katie: Like someone else's story that I've counseled.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yes.

Katie: Honestly, if if one sticks out, it's not specifically murder loss.

Katie: but the one that came to mind when you said that. So I'll probably go with that one is the 8 month old that was murdered

Katie: locally in Jacksonville.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Hmm.

Katie: So through. You know I have my practice, and I have a nonprofit through the nonprofit. I

Katie: do a support group, and so they're his caretaker came. And

Katie: I would. I would say that that sat with me longer than anybody has ever

Katie: you know, because I used to think it's not normal for me to sit and listen to this heavy, heavy stuff, and I go home. I'll go play pickleball, do whatever I want to do, and I'm not thinking one thing of that day

Katie: not one thing. And so it's not abnormal. It's healthy for me to compartmentalize that way.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: It's not that it doesn't. I don't care, or I'm not thinking about it. I just don't sit with it longer than that space that I'm in, and so

Katie: I hold space. But I don't carry.

Katie: you know, and but that that particular case was hard for me to hear.

Katie: because I think of an 8 month old.

Katie: you know he would have been one in dismay. And it's just I just can't imagine can't imagine. So I would say anytime. It's children, young children related. It's very hard for me.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, I would imagine that, too. I I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I love what you said about I hold space, but I don't carry.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Love, that.

Katie: Yeah, I love that.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: What's 1 of the most unexpected or inconvenient ways grief has shown up for you.

Katie: Inconvenient. It's a good word.

Katie: unexpected ways. Grief shows up. I would say. I mean so many right. I mean, I don't

Katie: name them all. But I think for me, accolades are really important to me. Education, just

Katie: I'm goal oriented. So I'm always doing something else. And

Katie: while accolades mean something to me. The like. The attention of it is not what I seek, but every single time that I have achieved something

Katie: my dad is not there, and I know he's not there because it's been almost 17 years. I'm aware that he's not here, but it comes up in the most nostalgic ways, and I just

Katie: am able to just give myself

Katie: that space. But I feel like that. Space is maybe once or twice a year that I really need to sit and focus on it because he's you know that grief's always there. He's not here today.

Katie: you know, but the latest, the latest, unexpected thing had nothing to do with accolades, was I was

Katie: and I wouldn't call it inconvenient. I would say it's a reminder that I'm still grieving, and I love those reminders, because sometimes I don't know if I am. And

Katie: I played pickleball with some people, and I was leaving Pickleball, and I went to pick up. Then this is, we're almost 17 years in. And I went to pick up my phone and call my dad. I hadn't done that since.

Katie: I don't even know when I mean that that's like a fresh, griever activity.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, yeah.

Katie: Hit me, and I just started crying. And I was like, I just wanted to tell my dad about pickleball. That's like all I wanted to do, and I couldn't, and that was that was very unexpected for me. And I told my best friends because they've lost their fathers obviously different ways. But

Katie: there's really just no true person that's gonna sit in that moment with you, you know. So so

Katie: I just yeah, that was that was weird. It was different.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And I had. I actually had one probably about.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Well, it's been 2 weeks now, so it was my, I had a

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I just woke up in the middle of the night. I was having a weird dream.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: and I woke up, and that dream had nothing to do with anything. It was a

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: it was almost a nightmare, but it hadn't. It didn't have anything to do with

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: my grief. So. But the the dream I woke up, and then I just like realized that it was

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: a 6 month mark or excuse me 6 year Mark.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: for my mom's mom had passed away.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: and I just I cried for probably 2 h, like just

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: 4 o'clock in the morning. It was a full moon, and I just bawled, and I'm just like I don't even I don't even know why. Why is this impacting me so hard? But like

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: it was an anniversary date, and I was more frustrated that, like

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: we're still here and not having answers. And so it was like a real weird thing on my.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Psyche, and I guess, like my spiritual belief, like Karma, like all these things, came up, and it was just so wild how that hit me out of nowhere.

Katie: Yeah.

Katie: yeah, it is. It's weird and part of befriending. Which is why I you know, I said, I had gratitude in that moment, too, is part of that. Is

Katie: that part of befriending grief, like I said earlier, is

Katie: not trying to understand why it's coming up, but just to let it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, so like sitting there and saying like, like feeling that emotion and like.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: maybe you could be like, you know, Dad, I I would have called you like if I could have called like, you know, or sitting like, you know, Granny, I'm I'm thinking of you right now. I'm holding space for you not being here.

Katie: Yup, exactly. It's kind of like if someone you care about or your child. Whoever

Katie: is emotional, you're you know. I would hope the average person doesn't say like, Why are you crying? You know.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: Wouldn't you? Naturally, I would hope comfort and with compassion, and say, like, Hold space, you know, and that's that's kind of what we owe it to ourselves and our loved ones to do

Katie: and so, because we know grief hits out of nowhere, and sometimes an inconvenient time, sometimes not.

Katie: There's no way to be ready. But we should know, you know. Okay, I can be compassionate. I can hold space for myself. I can acknowledge that this hurts still. And that's okay.

Katie: And these moments of grief that we're touching on are not exactly painful. I wouldn't describe it as painful. I would describe it as an absence, an emptiness that

Katie: is not ever going to be filled.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, yeah, I think they come on all spectrums. I I have.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I have moments of genuine like, it feels like the wind is blowing, and I've got chills in my body, and it's almost as if, like a spirit has wished by me, and it's their spirit, and they're just letting me know that they're here.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And then I have moments of like where it feels like I'm, you know, crouched in a corner, and I am just like full fledged like, you know, life is difficult right here. I'm grieving. You wish you were here. I have nobody. I feel and heard. They do come in waves.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: and it's it's incredible to have self permission to feel it.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: That's that's the one thing that has liberated me through grief. Counseling is being able to have

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: a word for my feelings, and being able to have quote unquote permission.

Katie: To feel them.

Katie: Yeah, yeah. And it's you know. One thing I teach a lot. And who

Katie: Megan Devine is a grief. Guru. I read. She speaks about pain versus suffering as well, and so I kind of took from her. I do a lot of acceptance and commitment therapy with that. That idea of

Katie: that suffering is an option. You know. Pain is very. It's inevitable where we are going to feel pain in this world. We are going to have other people disappoint us. We're going to have other people really hurt us, and murder is a betrayal like no other. And

Katie: But the suffering is really a choice in the matter of how we think how we allow the process to take over.

Katie: You know how we carry this grief is truly, what's gonna design? What kind of suffering we have.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Oh, my gosh, dude! That was a huge brick that just hit me. Pain versus suffering. Yeah. So like in the moment you have like a moment of

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: the absence which is, can be either pain, or you know, peace it it can be one of those 2. It it really depends on the moment. But then it's your

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: are you saying like there is an option that you can continue to be in that, and then like.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: carry it longer than you need to, and that turns into a suffer like I. I could see how that could absolutely turn my day.

Katie: Yeah, it's kind of like carrying it versus wearing it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: Why, people sometimes are considered stuck in their grief, you know, like they are not moving forward because there's a suffering. This isn't like victim blaming or or saying they're doing something wrong. It's just their their process, their type of thing. And I help people hopefully get unstuck. Sometimes, you know.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: It is a stuck. Yeah, it's not a.

Katie: Quicksand. If you let it, you know you, you could drown in this

Katie: or you could actually allow. Your part of the drowning is not allowing yourself to feel the pain of it, the weight

Katie: and the fear behind, that is, will I ever get out if I allow this to to hit me.

Katie: And yeah, we we are humanly.

Katie: We are designed to to be able to

Katie: get out of that like you're not going to literally cry forever, and I've had people think that like if I don't, if I cry, I'm not going to stop crying now. Do they really believe that? I don't know, but

Katie: it's just not physically possible, you know some point. There will be a relief

Katie: at the end of that tearful time, or

Katie: yeah, you don't. You? Don't get fully swallowed if you allow it to touch you.

Katie: That's why boundaries are super important with ourselves and our pain.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: So I have a question here which is really just what we taught what we just touched on. So again, it might be a little repetitive, but it is an invitation to expand. And the question is, what's more of a statement? Because this is factual for me.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Just like you at Pickleball.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: We've had moments where we're laughing. And then suddenly, there's a wave of grief. Does that make sense to you? And why does that happen?

Katie: Well, it makes sense to me.

Katie: because it's true, and it's what happens.

Katie: I don't. I don't exactly know. I think there's probably a scientific answer that I'm not privy to

Katie: But I am also aware that because our bodies remember trauma and our bodies remember pain and

Katie: like you said earlier Psyche, right? Like our, we have implicit and explicit memory. So.

Katie: Implicit is something. We I might get this wrong. Now that I'm saying these big words.

Katie: I want to say explicit is the one that we

Katie: we don't remember. It just lives in us, and so

Katie: that those memories can still be there, even though we're not conscious of it.

Katie: you know. And so I think that that plays a part, too, of like we're not. We're not walking around thinking.

Katie: oh, my! My dad is dead. I'm not always thinking he's dead. I'm like, at some point your body remembers. Your brain remembers. You are aware that they're not here.

Katie: and so we don't need a reminder. And so sometimes, when you're in a joyful mood, or something good is happening, or something, a milestone happens, whatever the case may be.

Katie: your brain and our hearts the way I've always said it is our brains and our hearts don't align. All of the time I do think our brains and our hearts are catching up to each other constantly in grief. That's how I describe it. And there's a book that I read.

Katie: I cannot think of the author right now, but it's called grief, brains, grief, brains on grief.

Katie: the grieving brain, the grieving brain, is what it's called, and she talks about. You know, if you're in your house for however many years, and you have your kitchen table in one spot.

Katie: you know. I bet you at night you could probably walk to the bathroom in the dark and not hit anything, because you know the route. You know where your furniture is. You know it like so well.

Katie: If someone was to move that table. It would shock the hell out of you if you ran into it, and the same concept happens with grief. She describes that of

Katie: our brains, and our hearts are not aligned in that way. And that's me paraphrasing how she describes it. It's just that our memory remembers where that table is our memory remembers our loved ones like the palm of our hands, and when they're not there, we are constantly like running into that table because we it's hard for us to remember our our memories are of them. So now we have to rewire into that. They're not here, and that takes a long time, which is why people

Katie: tend to pick up the phone. So that's why it was a shock for me

Katie: to do that, because it was like, how did this? How did this happen? I haven't done this in years. It's not a conscious thing. So that's my short answer.

Katie: Because it's not a a conscious thing, you know. It's it's an internal thing.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah. Now, that makes it laid out like that makes complete sense. And it

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: makes me feel better about it happening.

Katie: Yeah.

Katie: the. And I think I have backwards. The explicit memory is the conscious memory implicit is the one that's more internal.

Katie: So like implicit memory could be. You know I feel anxious on mother's day, and I don't know why.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, that makes sense.

Katie: It would make sense. Why, you feel that on. But that's just an example. And then be explicit would be

Katie: like, I remember my mom's laugh or

Katie: the day she died, which I know that you don't have the explicit memories.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: But you do as a baby being held by her, her giving birth to you.

Katie: You have those moments, and those were probably the most loving moments, because you haven't had

Katie: memories of her failing you.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Perfect.

Katie: You know.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: So it's actually kind of beautiful when you think about that.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: It is, it really is. And that's incredible. And I'm gonna try not to cry. Because you really hit

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I don't want to say, hit a nerve, but like you really hit the nail on the head with that, because I

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: don't have the explicit memories of her, and so to help me sometimes waiver through the grief, because

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: you know, now that I have kids like my.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: my grief has been ever present, like I don't remember as a teenager and as a child, and things like that, having the grief that I have now, I feel like it has grown way more now than I, because I maybe I suppressed it for so long, and then just exploded. I have no idea

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: but something that I.

Katie: In the unconscious memory. You're living in implicit memory, because that's all you have. You're, developmentally speaking, you wouldn't have any explicit.

Katie: So yeah, your memory of her is implicit, which is probably why it feels like so ingrained. Like attachment wounds.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I I have to separate myself from that, and I'll say things that.

Katie: You know I make.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I make dead mom jokes all the time like I make your mom jokes all the time like I, that's how I

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: you know. And I yeah.

Katie: Yeah, that's not uncommon.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And I try to

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: say, you know well, I do have this Madonna almost complex, that my mom would have been this perfect beautiful.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: never failing me.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: You know, goddess.

Katie: Joe Harass, though.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, yeah, wow. Jeez, Katie, I wasn't coming here for counseling. I was coming here.

Katie: Either.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Dude.

Katie: I was just amazed that I was remembering this memory thing.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: This is beautiful. This is so real because I will sit here, and I'll like have to talk myself off of a cliff and be like, you know, maybe this is the universe giving me a break, because, like maybe, she would have been a horrible mom like maybe she would have stopped loving me. Maybe she would have, you know.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: just turned into

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: not good. And so this is this is what happened. But that's not. That's not real. That's how I'm

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: realizing that I'm dealing with it.

Katie: Well, that might be your way of coping, too. Right? Makes it makes it better if I can. If I can make someone a monster. It'll make it better for me

Katie: to to not grieve her like if I.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I can.

Katie: It was not, or if someone.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yes, ma'am.

Katie: Memories of her that weren't good. And they told you that, you know, like that kind of thing.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Oh, yeah, that's so real because she wasn't, you know. But I

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: am using that as a coping mechanism to make her into one so that I can not.

Katie: Yeah. Miss. Her.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Much as I do.

Katie: Protective.

Katie: Yeah, we use it as protection.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Dude that makes me sad, that I do, that.

Katie: Yeah, it would make me sad, too.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Ugh! All right.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: for people who don't realize they're grieving. What are some subtle or sneaky waves that grief might show up in their day-to-day lives.

Katie: I mean, the way for me to answer this simply put would be

Katie: I mean, gosh, stress, how we handle stress, how we hold relationships kind of like what I said earlier. Irritability, anger, problems, you know, even like emotional detachment, the inability to feel feelings like I said, it comes out in other ways. And so when someone loses a loved one, especially to murder, the body takes a massive hit.

Katie: and so I would say, we feel it in our bodies before anything else, and that will that'll show up more than ever. I mean, I've met people

Katie: who are constantly trying to solve their loved ones murder, and that's their main focus. They've idolized this idea of justice.

Katie: and in that they have ailments, illnesses. They're sick all the time. So trauma and grief can lock that nervous system in survival mode. And that is an indicator that whether it's grief or not, that there's something going on that causes chronic stress.

Katie: Sleep issues. Gosh, digestion issues immunity problems.

Katie: Physical pain, inflammation. I mean, I can't. You name it. It's there, you know, sometimes heart problems, of course, because that's, you know, the main stressor.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, I heard that we don't, so they don't go away. You can't suppress them, we internalize them. And then they

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: what is that that.

Katie: Body keeps the score like we will literally hold on to it all.

Katie: Yeah, it's it's not just emotional.

Katie: It like grief. Will. Grief lives in our bodies.

Katie: And so, without, like formal support, or without any type of support, without the the process that's needed, for it needs to go somewhere. It needs a place to go. Every time it comes up. It needs an avenue to go somewhere.

Katie: and if it doesn't, it leads to long-term health issues in all kinds of ways, long-term emotional issues.

Katie: Yeah. Ptsd, all of the things.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Whoa! So you gotta get it out like you gotta let yourself feel it.

Katie: Yeah.

Katie: here's the. And this isn't like the most ideal. When I work with addiction and rehab at my rehab job I have.

Katie: This isn't the the funnest way to put it. But like, if you are not going number 2, if you're not pooping

Katie: what happens like literally, what will happen if you don't.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I don't know. Does it come out of your mouth.

Katie: No, you begin like septic, right?

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Okay.

Katie: That's so funny. The same thing happens with emotions. We we become

Katie: infected and septic with emotions. And so it's about in other ways.

Katie: So we, the cool thing is we have control over how we let it out like we, you know, it has to go somewhere. So what? How? Why not control where it goes? Why not control, how we carry it

Katie: and how we process it?

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Oh, man.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: let's talk about the anger. Do you think people are afraid to admit they're angry with the person who died.

Katie: Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Katie: yeah. I don't think a lot of people realize. And that was one of my experiences. Early on that. I I think I touched on earlier is, I didn't realize the for my personal experience, the amount of trauma that I experienced as a child. I was not aware of

Katie: the word trauma.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And to.

Katie: Well, I started going to grad school.

Katie: and so here I am at 30 years old.

Katie: learning that I had an actual, really traumatic

Katie: childhood, and there's so many attachment wounds. There's so much wrong

Katie: with the family that I was raised in that I didn't know it impacted me. So once I started learning that and healing that within myself. That's when my dad's grief stuff started coming up, and I realized I had to grieve who he was.

Katie: I learned very hard things about his life. When he died I learned

Katie: the childhood he he had, and I developed such an unconditional compassion and love for him through that, but then I had to grieve

Katie: like him, and who he should have been for me as a father.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Father.

Katie: In on top of

Katie: this poor guy got shot to death. And I just I hate that for him, too, you know. So so yeah, I, knowing that's a part of the process. That's something that that's a lived experience that I can bring into space without them knowing. And

Katie: But a lot of people are scared to grieve the life

Katie: that they lived which would which would include hard, complicated personalities, hard, complicated, falling out hard, complicated relationship stuff.

Katie: Yeah, very hard to grieve that, because then you have to recognize that on top of them being dead, and you just it's hard to reconcile, and some people think well, it died with them, but it really didn't

Katie: and the other part to that is, when people become idolized of their loved one. If you're idolizing your loved one, you can't really see the negative parts of them, and every single person has negative parts. We all have some sort of

Katie: wounding that has created us to have some sort of behavioral

Katie: issues of some sort, like, we're not perfect. And so, so yeah. But people are very scared to go there.

Katie: Some people, not all.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Well, that makes room for

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: going back to like, you know. It died when they died, like any type of conflict. Any type of like, you know, disagreement like a pee under the mattress type thing that just never got scraped over or evened out, or you know. So how do we make peace with the things that we never got to say.

Katie: Well, I I mean.

Katie: piece is gonna look different for everyone. And so I think with clients that I can speak to that is letter writing.

Katie: lots of letter writing, writing is probably one of the most research based, powerful tools that we can use with grief or any type of healing needed actually writing is, I mean, it's just writing

Katie: kind of like writing. That implicit memory that we don't know exist and explicit both come out. So I have prompts that I use with clients where we write who we were when they died. We write to the person that died. It addresses the complications of the person you know.

Katie: forgiveness. Therapy is super important, because a part of that grief process might be forgiveness.

Katie: You know. We might be holding on to unforgiveness, resentment, and all these things towards our loved one.

Katie: and calling it grief.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, that's wild to think about.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I didn't know that there was forgiveness therapy.

Katie: Yeah, it's actually, it's a psychologically research based therapy, that

Katie: of course I don't know his name right now, either, but he's 1 of my favorite authors. I can't remember authors, but he

Katie: His name's Robert. I can't think of his last name, but he created forgiveness therapy, and it's actually a stage by stage

Katie: process.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Oh, wow! That's incredible. I'll get with you on that. So I can make sure we have

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: all those resources out there.

Katie: Yeah, yeah, he

Katie: it's pretty cool, because, you know, we've we learn. I think people often think, oh, forgiveness is like that Christian thing or that religious topic, and it's not it's Dr. Robert Enright that's who it is.

Katie: Robert. Dr. Robert Enright created forgiveness therapy, so we could go through the phases that it takes to get to true forgiveness. It's not. It's a therapeutic approach. But I think when we think of it in religious context, it's kind of bypassing emotion.

Katie: And what I love about this process is that it heals emotional pain and trauma.

Katie: But in case like, especially with deep wounds of loss or betrayal. That's the specific

Katie: need for it. And so it just helps

Katie: us let go of resentment and anger. Either toward the person that I mean in this question you're asking into the person that died, but also the person who took them.

Katie: and so it helps us move forward. And there's just key steps that are designed specifically for us to go through. And one of them is

Katie: like acknowledging what we're forgiving. I think, as some people skip that step very often, you know.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I was just thinking about. There's so much my brain's exploding when it comes to emotions. Just period are such a huge pool that is almost a

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: you don't have a whole lot of, I guess

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: conversations about it whenever you're growing up, you know, like, I don't know if we just weren't given the tools, or if our parents weren't given the tools, or if emotions are just one of those things that were always just kind of put on the back burner, but

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: having emotions and having the names for the emotions, and then understanding. Every person has emotions like, and there's, you know, the feelings wheel. You told me about the feelings wheel, and there's only so many emotions that, like one person, you know can have, because there's only so many emotions out there and getting to know what those emotions are

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: processing them, and realizing that that is a part of the forgiveness is.

Katie: Well, one of the stages uncovering the hurt so part of uncovering the hurt is recognizing emotional pain. How do you recognize emotional pain

Katie: you have to name the emotions and acknowledge that they exist.

Katie: and so part of acknowledging is saying, this makes me feel sad, angry.

Katie: enraged, betrayed whatever they are you name them?

Katie: And you'd.

Katie: you know, acknowledging them doesn't mean you just name them and you move on. Now you have to say, yeah, this is what I feel, and I'm gonna feel it right now, and you sit with it. You don't stay in it. You just sit with it for a minute.

Katie: and that can. Only if if you're uncovering the hurt in that way in that healthy way

Katie: that that's the only thing that can lead to an understanding of the hurt that's been affecting you emotionally.

Katie: If you don't go through the emotional piece of it, how are you ever going to understand the hurt to even let go of it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, that's wild. I'm having a visual in my mind right now trying to like, put that into a metaphor.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And it's like, you know you're sitting on a couch, and you

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: sit next to whatever this emotion is

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: like, you introduce it, you acknowledge it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: You sit with it until you're done, and then you

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: you get up and walk away. Or what do you do after you sit in that emotion.

Katie: I mean, you wanna sit somewhere safe. That's safe, emotionally meaning I mean, physically, too, but emotionally. So

Katie: if you're angry.

Katie: you know a lot of the times. If you die, so I would call it dissection. You're going to dissect what you feel. That's what the feelings will is about, too. You're going to say, Okay, I feel angry, but when you branch off on the feelings will from anger on, then you can really say, Well, I feel betrayed. Okay, why do you feel betrayed?

Katie: Because this person killed my mom and never came forward.

Katie: And so it's dissecting it that way.

Katie: Not just solely

Katie: feeling the feeling right? Because sometimes when we're feeling something, we're not aware that we're feeling it.

Katie: A lot of us act things out before we feel. And so

Katie: so it's sitting with the feeling. Not like you're sitting on the couch in resentment. But you're sitting there recognizing, I feel resentful at this person because of a B and C,

Katie: and now you've acknowledged it. You're acknowledging that you were already feeling it. It's not like the feeling just appeared because you named it. Does that make sense.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yes.

Katie: I'm not going to say oh, I'm sad! And then I'm going to start crying. No, I've been sad. I've been carrying this sadness, and now I'm finally

Katie: like liberating it and saying, Hey, I feel sad, and this is why I feel sad. So that's what the that's what the true acknowledgment is.

Katie: is my cat is recognizing that you've been carrying these emotions because they're not new. So I think that's probably important to note is that it's not new. And if you dissect anger, it's most of the time fear fears angers like Cousin

Katie: most of the time below. Anger is something else, because anger is secondary, although anger is also very normal in a murder loss.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah. Well, in grief, I think all in general, it's.

Katie: Yeah, but you can't live in anger. Right? So.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, anger will overtake you, for sure it will ruin your joy.

Katie: Yeah. So all emotions, you know, they're indicators that something's going on internally that need to be explored. But what happens is we don't explore them, and our emotions dictate who we are, what we do, what we say, how we act. That's why it's easier for people to just cut people off and never talk about it again when that's just really running.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: So. Emotions are very important signs that there's something happening. But they should not.

Katie: The way I think of emotions. And I've said this in sessions and groups before is like when you're shopping.

Katie: and you're just going through the rack of clothes.

Katie: you know. Could you imagine putting on every shirt that you like in that row

Katie: like at that moment, just putting them all on. No, that would be weird. And so it's kind of like the same concept with emotions like, you're really just sifting through. And you're like, Oh, I like that one. I like that one. Yeah. Oh, this is nice. This is nice. Oh, that's cute. That's cute, whatever same thing with emotions like, yeah, that's relatable. Yeah, I feel that. Yeah, I felt that. But you're not like wearing them all in that moment, because if you did you, you probably wouldn't be able to handle that.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, no, that's.

Katie: Have the emotional capacity, and so the difference between acknowledging it, touching it, letting it touch you, but not wearing it, and and making it? Who you are? Does that make sense.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yes.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, yeah, what do you do?

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: So I'm gonna revert back to?

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Well, I mean, I think I'm gonna answer my own question here. But

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: the other night, whenever I woke up from the dream, and I just instantly went straight into grief.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: and I just sat. I I had cry like there was. No, I couldn't stop crying like I had to sit there and just

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: cry, and there was a lot of anger that was anger, for sure. I was angry.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And then, you know, just

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: sad a lot of grief and things like that. And so to be able to

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: move on past that I I had to sit in it like it kind of dampered the rest of my day because I was tired, and you know a lot of energy was like dispersed through the crying, but

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I had to finish sitting in it.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Or it would have taken me the whole day the whole day, and I would have just kept like little bits and little bits and little bits, and who knows? It could have lasted for days with like plural. But because I sat in it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I think I was able to just get it all out, and then move on.

Katie: Yeah.

Katie: yeah. Yeah. Acknowledging emotions means recognizing, naming them without judgment, showing up for yourself, without judgment. So it could be anger, sadness, fear.

Katie: And then sitting with them is just allowing yourself to feel them fully.

Katie: of course, without overtaking you, and also what that looks like is without rushing or fixing.

Katie: rushing, to fix or escape them, because that's what happens. We start to feel it. And we're like, Oh, no, no, no, I'm not going there. Yeah, to fix. And that's what a lot of people do, too, which is why we often feel dismissed or unheard in this loss. So it's really just about creating the space for your feelings to exist the same way a therapist does, and knowing that they don't define you, you know. But in order to heal, we have to feel them.

Katie: We have to know they're there.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: Well, and it's always a choice.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: It's always a choice.

Katie: Yeah, that's why suffering is a choice. Because if we're avoiding the emotion, suffering will come.

Katie: We will endure suffering more than we needed to.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Hmm!

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: That was profound.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: You often say healing isn't a destination. What does that really mean?

Katie: we're always evolving. And if and you know, if the saying goes that as we live, grief evolves with us, we're never really fooling, arriving to this fully whole person. There's a concept in psychology and in grad school, we learned called self actualizing. And that just means we're always reaching for that next best us. And so I think we're always healing if we're choosing that.

Katie: But we're never fully like this perfected person that doesn't have any more healing to do because people are still going to hurt us. People are still going to disappoint us. We're still going to have

Katie: some sort of imposter syndrome at times we're still going to have these these negative core beliefs or wounds that come up.

Katie: So we're always so. I call it self actualizing. We're just always trying to better ourselves, more.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, that was good

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: in your own life. Years removed from the loss. How does healing look now compared to how it looked in the beginning.

Katie: How does healing look.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, for you.

Katie: Healing looks for me different than

Katie: in the beginning. In the beginning of when my dad was killed. I was not who I am today, I mean no, nowhere close. I I'm sure there's

Katie: residue of who I was, you know, cause I I think I've always had this the same

Katie: self energy that I do that just needed maturing. But

Katie: when my dad died I was pretty angry.

Katie: And I've always had a high belief in justice, a high belief in accountability and responsibility that's been ingrained in me.

Katie: I would like to say it's from my parents, I I mean, that would be a great positive answer. But I'm I'm not entirely sure where it comes from. I just know that it's it's in me. And so for

Katie: so I think that I held on to the anger of like that. This just happened, and no one cared.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: Then I lost my dad.

Katie: And then when I self actualized and I found myself more, and I started learning and developing and and healing.

Katie: I realized that, you know, actually.

Katie: now it's okay to grieve, and I can release the anger. And so so I was very angry and numbed in the beginning, and now I'm very open. And I'm like a vulnerable person in general, and so

Katie: I learned how to allow myself to feel things and

Katie: to cry to, to acknowledge what I'm feeling, even if it's just for a second, you know.

Katie: I've I'm no, I'm no longer numb. So that's that would be my.

Katie: I was very numb

Katie: and numbs protection. I learned how to self protect from trauma, and now that I know that I can, I can regulate differently.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I would love on a personal level, and like for anybody who needs it, you

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: having the experience. And now, in addition to that, you being educated on mental health, and how to help others?

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: How do you self-regulate like? What does that look like like?

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Can you walk us through that.

Katie: Yeah. Self regulation for me is I still have attachment that comes up like even yesterday there was a situation at work, and I was just with a colleague of mine, a friend of mine, and she goes, that's not you. That's the attachment talking. And so even in that, that's when I'm like, Okay, yeah, let me let me back up and try to process what it is that I'm actually feeling. And so for me, regulation looks like deep breaths.

Katie: Pausing so my main regulation skill that I teach everyone deep breaths and pausing if we can pause

Katie: without reacting right away.

Katie: So much clarity comes from that. And so for me, personally, regulation

Katie: looks like pausing and taking a breath before reacting. Because then I'm able to respond. There's a difference between reaction response. And we've been developed as humans since children to impulsively react to something.

Katie: And so

Katie: learning how to respond differently with from a clear mind is is a. It takes a pause

Katie: so deep breaths pause, getting your thoughts straight. Journaling. That's another I regulate by journaling and just

Katie: letting it flow out of my my head and my heart.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, giving yourself that space. I love that you've given me permission.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: That really changed my life.

Katie: That means a lot.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Oh, all right, creativity and grief. Many people find themselves writing, painting, singing, creating after loss. What do you think, creativity? Or excuse me? Why do you think creativity becomes such a big deal of grief.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: such a big part after grief.

Katie: Well, I think when you know there's there are.

Katie: The example I can think of right now is I have

Katie: the addiction groups I do on Fridays, and we talk therapy.

Katie: Talking it out doesn't work for everyone. You know, we use different sides of our brains and people process differently. And so

Katie: using creativity or expressive arts. Type therapy is

Katie: is a way of for us to express what we're feeling without words. And I think that there's space for that for everyone. There are things that we don't even know how to put into words, but art will bring it out. Writing will bring it out. Art can be, and I've had clients like I'm not an artist. Well, neither am I. But you could draw stick figures of you and your loved one that died on a sunny day, and say, that was a memory of us at the beach. You know what I mean like to be perfected. And so

Katie: it's just putting words to on paper. It's putting that that what we are not able to say verbally.

Katie: outwardly, on through art. And so. And it's also a way of making meaning where you know people.

Katie: Some people are very creative with it, and some people are not. But either way it. It does something to us that we didn't even know could.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And it doesn't have to be for anyone else.

Katie: It doesn't. No.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: It's for you. So who cares what it looks like? It's just a part of being able to get it out and.

Katie: Yeah, I mean, there's lots of things. There's a a

Katie: an activity called like the grief timeline. And if you just make literally a timeline, and you're putting every grief you've had, like the amount of trauma, trauma, timeline, grief, timeline whatever. But just the you could see like, you know, when we look at graphs, the bar graphs like. So you could draw

Katie: that. And just looking at, that's a creative activity that you look at. And you're like, and that right there will say, Gosh! I've been through so much, and it creates such a gratitude, but also like a compassion of like. No wonder I struggle with this, this and this, because look what I've been through so even, that is putting it into words without saying it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yes.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, that's a powerful tool.

Katie: Yeah, yeah, we did one in grad school. It was amazing.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: That sounds like something I'm gonna get back with you on, and maybe we'll do that as a project.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: That's incredible.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Storytelling became part of how I survived. Once. One creative outlet you recommend for people who are processing their pain.

Katie: So storytelling is research based as well. I'm big on research, based because it's been accredited

Katie: to say, Hey, this is this works. And so telling your story looks different for everyone but

Katie: I think talking about your loved one. If that's the grief that you're referring to.

Katie: Talking about them, remembering them, and then telling the death story, telling the story of

Katie: how it happened, what you remember almost reliving it in that moment to tell this story.

Katie: A lot of people don't tell the full story. If you've ever recognized in project cold case support groups or other support groups, you've been a part of whatever

Katie: you don't usually hear them say my loved one was such and such, and

Katie: they blah blah. Now they hear you hear automatically where the case. Status is

Katie: never their name, and how they died.

Katie: And it's more or less about the suspect. So if we're so, you know. So this is focusing on murder loss. Of course

Katie: you don't ever hear the true story of

Katie: they were, you know, for instance, my part of my story is

Katie: that I I was at work, and my boss

Katie: came to me and said he needed to talk to me. I thought I was getting promoted.

Katie: and he took me in this like very small.

Katie: It's the closet, but it's like a room, too. And he shut the door. And I thought, Okay, I guess I'm getting promoted for real.

Katie: And then my mom had told him to tell me for her, and so he told me that my dad had been killed, but he told me. My dad was murdered

Katie: at his house. So for me, in my mind automatically goes to that. My dad was in his favorite recliner, dead like that was the image I remember having, and so I instantly was just crying and upset and confused. I you know, you know you just don't know like

Katie: you don't know like what to do with that. It's just such a heavy revelation. And so

Katie: I was just confused. And so part of me saying, all of that is saying, okay, I'm telling my story. But I'm saying what I felt in the moment.

Katie: What happened next. Right? It's like literally telling a story. A lot of people skip over those details. Whether they're painful, whether they don't remember them I don't know. But so storytelling is probably the the beginning of the process.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, I love

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: like, I think also, when it comes to just to kind of hit back on that a little bit, I think that we get so

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: like, I think there's a fine line

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: of telling the story versus feeling like

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: we've told it so many times that nobody wants to hear it.

Katie: Yeah, it's different. I mean, especially in the support group realm.

Katie: They don't want to keep repeating, their intro, right?

Katie: yeah. I mean. Once you tell it.

Katie: you just keep telling it. But the details that stay are the ones that are gonna end up being the most important. At some point

Katie: it kind of gets shorter.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Well, I wonder if that really also has some type of an effect on where that person is on their healing journey, like if they're

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: just a for instance, and nobody in particular. But if we were to be on a call and somebody were to talk about, you know, only the suspect and not talk about their loved one. They're in a space of

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: hurt and anger. Still, you know, like they haven't even processed. Really, the fact that the loved one is gone. It seems to me like maybe they're hyper focused on the fact that you know the justice isn't served and somebody is out there. They've taken something from them, and that's the big focus is that something was taken from them, but not what.

Katie: Yeah, a lot of the times they come to the support groups, not everyone, but in at least until I started. When I facilitate. It's more therapeutic, because that's what I do. I'm not an advocate. And so

Katie: the they come for the sole purpose of getting the case heard.

Katie: And then I throw a wrench in there with emotions. And it's it's really changed a lot and gotten very meaningful and beautiful. But they do come for the sole purpose of like this is my loved one like how do I get it? Heard more.

Katie: The case. This is the case. It's been this long. And so there's not a whole lot of room for the grieving process. And so

Katie: we have open doors. So it's very complex

Katie: because we want the answers. And if we have, this is how the it goes linear. If we have the answers, then we can begin to heal.

Katie: and that's not accurate. Justice is not a cure, and when we have that belief that justice is a cure.

Katie: we will remain stuck on finding that justice not, and in that space we have not addressed the trauma, because this.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Isn't true.

Katie: Traumatic loss. This is not just a loss. We have trauma to treat, and then we have the grief to treat.

Katie: and I don't know which one you can treat first, st which comes first, st the chicken or the egg. We'll never know that, but you have to treat them both.

Katie: and a lot of people

Katie: get stuck in grief, I think, because the trauma is still very, very there, and the hypervigilance like you just said the hyper. Focus on you know, that's what trauma does. It keeps us focused on anything but the trauma.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, yep.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And I have to agree with you on that getting

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: oh, man, because, i've personally had to sit with this for so long. I didn't understand why, like, why is the case not solved? It makes no sense to me. If it were nowadays. And it happened, you know, 10 min ago it would have been solved so quickly with the amount of all the stuff that they have.

Katie: Yeah, I could say the same.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Hyper fixated on. I just want the justice I just want somebody to, you know. Put this hurt on like I need to have. My husband has this conversation with me

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: often, because I'm in.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I find myself in this type of grief.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: you know often enough to talk about it. So you know, he's like I find myself

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: finding people that I'm trying to put the pain on.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And he's like, you know it. This is not going to make it go away like having the case closed is not going to make it go away. Because what are you going to do? God forbid! It really never does get closed. There never is an answer.

Katie: Yeah, but you have. I've seen people wait and fight, and then when it gets solved

Katie: it's kind of like I think about it like when I was in my master's program and I was working. I didn't have a day off.

Katie: and when school ended, you know, I waited 4, I think 4 years

Katie: my, actually, that's longer. I waited longer to get my doctorate. But either way, when master's program ended and I graduated.

Katie: I was like, what do I do now?

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah. Who am I now?

Katie: All of my focus was there. What do I do now? I felt like an empty nester, so to speak, right for lack of a better term. And so

Katie: that is the same feeling. I that's what I imagine it to be like. If I am so hyper focused on one thing, and then, when that's not there to focus on anymore, I feel lost.

Katie: It's the same as codependency. If you're so fixated on a person in a relationship, and they're your world, and then they break up with you or leave you, or something happens. Your whole world comes crumbling down, and the same concept is going to happen for grief when you're idolizing that case, and you're trying to figure that out when it gets figured out.

Katie: Or if it doesn't, your world is going to be that.

Katie: We, wherever we focus on, that's our, that's gonna be everything that's going to be our world. And so

Katie: it's an open wound that we have to live with until it until it

Katie: get scabbed. But it's never going to fully be a closed wound. I mean, it's just impossible to me. I don't think we could ever fully recover.

Katie: and the way that.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I don't think grief is recoverable. I think it's just something we really live with.

Katie: And we get to choose how we live with it.

Katie: That's a majority of what I do. How do you want to live with this. Do you want to live miserable, holding on to this.

Katie: or do you want to use it? Let it be used for good. It can be.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: You know.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yes, yeah, because hurt.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: One of my questions was like, Do you think like, I know I I don't believe for me that it will ever go away because of the

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: connection that I have, that you know it's my mom. I don't believe for me that it will ever go away. I will always miss that void. But like.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: do we believe that grief is something that can that like it like I don't know. Will it ever heal like even scab over like it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I don't even know how to scab it really.

Katie: No, I think when we think of a healing that we're fully recovered and we don't have, we don't have it there anymore. And that's not grief. Grief's always there.

Katie: You know that that quote of grief is love with nowhere to go, or my favorite quote is the only cure for grief is to grieve.

Katie: you know, and that's an ongoing, everyday rest of our life process until we die. And whatever you believe in, go to heaven, or don't believe in heaven wherever you believe you go.

Katie: That's when it ends, when we're no longer feeling on earth.

Katie: and that sounds like a deaf sentence to people. But it's actually a beautiful thing, because it's love, and that's why I'm fascinated by it.

Katie: because it's coming from such a pure place.

Katie: It could be the most evil, heinous crime that just impacted our lives. And it did.

Katie: But my love for my dad is coming from a very pure and honest place, and I owe it to that

Katie: that part of me, and I owe it to my father to make something of that.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I just want to sit for that, like I'm

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: sitting on what you said for just a second.

Katie: Okay.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: All right.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: If someone's listening today who's in the rawness of grief.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: what do you want them to hear.

Katie: Hmm.

Katie: hmm.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I'm going to say you're allowed to grief. Casey needed to. Casey needed that. I needed to be told that.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: So if anyone else needs to be told that this is us telling you you're allowed to feel

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: like. However long it's been it, it doesn't matter. I'm gonna say it doesn't matter if you are raw. God bless you like love and light.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: If it's not, and it's been 38 years. That's okay. Still, too.

Katie: Yeah, I would, I would say, let it I mean my 1st initial thought and word was, and I have

Katie: a board that I'm looking at behind my computer. And the word that stuck out is literally on my, it's like quotes and stuff, and it says he'll. And so I would say, heal, but heal is such a broad term in the terms of

Katie: in terms of not okay. We'll like fix it. But heal and healing is a process just like grief is a process. So we're not just always like you said, how do we never reach healing? You asked me about that. It's like healing is a process, and it's ongoing just like grief is, and so heal

Katie: welcome it. Let it go. I describe grief often, too, as like a catch and release

Katie: you catch it, you release it, you catch it, you release it, you catch it, you release it, you know. You don't hold on to it. You just keep it's a constant

Katie: catch and release. And so yeah, heal, let it in.

Katie: let it in, let it out.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Acknowledge, acknowledge it. You're letting it in.

Katie: Become its friend cause it's not going to be scary if you're friends with it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And it's not gonna go away, even if it's.

Katie: Stop.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Healed like, even if you feel like, you're in a

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: a different phase in life, and everything is awesome, and it does not just walk away. It kind of stays with you forever.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: What's 1 grounding thing someone could do tonight if their grief feels too heavy to carry.

Katie: I would say writing is always going to be my. Go to journaling or letter writing, write a letter to your loved one.

Katie: just write a letter, tell them all the things you've been going through. Tell them what you miss.

Katie: tell them your grief story when you left. This is what I experienced.

Katie: Ask them why they left, you know. Just write it out, get it out.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, I'm just like envisualing myself

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: riding and my loved one like on, you know.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: the other edge of my shoulder kind of peeking over to see what what I'm writing and reading everything that I'm writing were like my soul. And you know my intuition. Just kind of reading it out loud as I'm writing it, just everything coming out, and they're able to feel the love that we have for them. By how much we grieve.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Hmm!

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Well, I'm going to go ahead and go into a segment for project. Cold case.

Katie: Okay.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Give them a shout out, say that we're both members of Project Cold Case.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I don't think we talk enough about what it feels like when justice never comes.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: When someone you love is murdered, the case remains unsolved. It's like a second loss. And that is so true. It's it's awful. It's

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I'm I'm gonna be bold as to say, you know, it's a different feeling from having someone pass away from homicide. And then, of course, they're being

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: someone to point that finger at that. That took your loved one's life versus? Of course, never any answers.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: A different kind of silence. One that lingers.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Katie. Why is advocacy so important in the aftermath of violent loss? And what would you say to families who are still waiting, still pushing for answers, still trying to hold on, to hope.

Katie: Advocacy is a voice. And when we're experiencing the most painful thing we probably would go through, we need

Katie: obviously, someone level headed and clear minded, but also unbiased, someone who can be our voice and speak up and show up

Katie: for us and our loved one. That's how I would describe advocacy. I'm sure there's

Katie: more lawful answers. There's more depth to what Crystal or Ryan would probably share.

Katie: But that's my my long and short of it. I didn't personally have an advocate until 3 years later, when it was suspended. And you know I met Ryan, and

Katie: Ryan gave me the lowdown that the case is not being worked, and I was more angry than I thought I would be.

Katie: I didn't know no one was working it I had no idea. And so an advocate.

Katie: I think the lived experience of that person really brings who they are to the to the team just like a therapist, and so

Katie: that's a partnership. And I I you know Ryan, was that for me for

Katie: years and I didn't need him for court. I didn't go to court, obviously, but he

Katie: he taught me how to heal

Katie: in a way that I didn't know that I could, and so I think that that speaks to what advocacy is. He gave a voice the same way. You're saying I helped you name yours. He helped me name mine, and it wasn't like oh, grief! It was just. He helped me find some sort of solace and peace with what has had happened to me.

Katie: whereas I was living in numbness, not knowing anything, I knew nothing.

Katie: And then the world had gone on without me.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: And Ryan broke through that, and

Katie: was such a hope in the wreckage of what I had experienced.

Katie: And so I think advocates create hope where there was none. And

Katie: they're a voice for us. Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I definitely have to say that I resonate with that so much with project, cold case, and

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: that whole

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: just all the way around. I can say that I did not have an advocate until I met Ryan, either. I didn't know what an advocate was.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: and that is a beautiful definition, because that makes sense to me. That's exactly what it is.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: My mom's case was not out there since

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I think, 1989. That was the last

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: that it was really talked about. She did have newspaper clippings. There was newspaper articles written about her. She was on the front page that was fabulous, but other than that. And those newspapers I have them. There's not a

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: like an archive, or anything of those newspapers, you know. So until Rod Project Cold case

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: came along with Ryan.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Nobody.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I mean, we've talked about this before. I've talked about this out loud before, so I'm not afraid to say it.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I had to lie about so many things. I lied to everyone. I you know, internalized it and lied to myself.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, because that became my story, because, you know you couldn't find it on the Internet.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Google came around. It wasn't Googleable, you know, none of those things. So.

Katie: Theories we create theories because we don't know, and that's Ryan helped me.

Katie: Break down those those theories. And

Katie: ultimately, you know, I found out more than I needed to. I mean more than I knew later on. But yeah, we do. We make up theories and we try to pretend

Katie: this must have happened, or this happened, and it it's kind of helps protect us, you know.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, yep, 100%.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: We're going to wrap it up with a joint reflection.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: So if you could say one thing.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: if you could say one thing to your father right now. What would it be.

Katie: Hmm.

Katie: Then I'm okay.

Katie: I'm okay. I I'm okay. And you know

Katie: he there's a picture of him in front of me. He

Katie: he did the best he could, and I I understand that, and I love him

Katie: probably more than I'll ever love another man.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And that's that. Yeah, yes, that was beautiful. Oh, my gosh!

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: If my mother could hear me right now!

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And I have this scripted. So I'm able to read it and not have to worry about bawling on the

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: podcast with you.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: You know, you told me about grief in 6 words, which is an awesome website.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: And it is if you could say your grief in 6 words, what would it be?

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: So I wrote on there after you told me. It's years and years ago I'm

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I wish you could hold me.

Katie: Hmm, yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I think I'd say I've been trying to find you my whole life.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: and in the process I found myself.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I carry your name. I carry your love. I carry both the wound and the will to heal.

Katie: Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah. And I hope that this helps others too.

Katie: I noticed that both of our what we said is not, you know, I I think I could pick 6 words. I wish you were here still. Right, that would be 6 but that's not true for me. And my loss, you know I

Katie: what's I? What's unique with me and my story, and I think shocks most people is I don't have a desire.

Katie: a deep desire to know who killed him. What I want to know and go through that, of course. But I don't seek that. That's not important. It's not more important than other things. And

Katie: another unique part of it for me is that my dad's murder was the best and worst thing that's ever happened to me, and so I would not be who I am.

Katie: and have been on all the walks of life that I have or helped the people that I have, or just

Katie: been, the

Katie: the person that I've wanted to be. Without that traumatic loss I would probably be someone else, and and maybe an entire different lived experience, and it would still be good. But

Katie: but his his death changed me and the the and it impacted my life for the rest of my life. And so

Katie: I don't wish to change that, you know. But in the same breath I'd give anything to have him here to see all of this, but if he was, it wouldn't make sense. And so

Katie: that's something that I often struggle with, that that boundary of the 2, that tension of them of them clashing because

Katie: I would love it. But I really do think that he's.

Katie: I like to believe they watch us. I don't know, but I like to believe that every Friday night they have a movie night in heaven, and they cuddle up, and they watch our whole lives in that whole week, and they get to laugh or cry like a movie, you know, and they're like, man like I hit a curb today. You know, my dad's gonna be like, look at this. She can't drive, you know, and I.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Good! Yes, my God!

Katie: That's what stuff like that brings me comfort and so yeah, it's

Katie: he was, you know. He was a good guy.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: Deserved more, he deserved more.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I can say the same, I can say

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: beyond a shadow of a doubt. I wouldn't be doing this, you know. I I don't believe that I would have. I wouldn't have a depression. I don't believe I would. And you know, Ryan, he and I have had the conversation. Also. He

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: project. Cold case may not be here.

Katie: No, it wouldn't. And so think of. You know you think of murder, and me and Ryan used to talk about that statistically. I don't know what the statistic is today, but I can go into a room and meet at least one or 2 people who've lost someone to murder. It's happened to me. I have conversations all the time.

Katie: And so it's imagine the the trickle effect of murder loss, the amount of people that it actually impacts your mom's murder impacted your kids, your kids, kids, right? It just keeps going. It's ongoing.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah.

Katie: Same thing for healing. We have this trickle effect that's impacting all these people things that we didn't know that the world would need.

Katie: But because of these losses, because of these these great traumatic experiences that we've had.

Katie: we now can be a part of that solution in some way. And so I don't think I would trade that for anything.

Katie: You know.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Have to agree with you.

Katie: They would need. They would need that. They would need project cold case. They would need

Katie: your books. They would need therapy. They would need these things, and it's it's very helpful to me.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: I would absolutely have to agree.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Well, I am going to go ahead and wrap us up. This has been

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much.

Katie: Of course.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Thank you so much.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Yeah, Katie, I'm so grateful for your presence, your wisdom, your willingness to go to the places many avoid.

Katie: Yeah.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: This conversation is going to stay with people, and I truly believe that.

Katie: Yeah, thank you so much. That means a lot.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: You. Thank you. It means a lot that you're taking

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: the step to take your grief and make it into power.

Katie: Yeah, thank, you.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: To anyone listening.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: If grief has found you, whether last week or decades ago, you're not alone, you're not broken. There is a safe space for your healing. Even in the absence of justice or resolution

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: you can connect with Dr. Katie Wiggins through her practice@uprootedhealing.com, or by calling 9, 0 4, 9, 9, 3,

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: 2, 4, 8, 6.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: She offers virtual therapy, and is a deeply compassionate advocate for healing and emotional healing. I can absolutely attest to that.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: She was my 1st grief counselor.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: and for those who've experienced unsolved, violent losses, I encourage you to visit projectcoldcase.org

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: your story matters. Your loved ones matters.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: and your grief deserves a voice.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: If this episode stirred something in you, take 5 min after this

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: to journal, or sit in silence.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Here's a gentle reflection prompt. You can carry with you

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: what part of me is still grieving that I never got to say

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: what part of me is still worthy of love, even in sadness.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: You don't have to rush to feel better. You only need to remember

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: you are human, and you are held.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Thanks, Katie.

Katie: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Take off the Mask with CasieCasem: Bye, everybody!